Consequences of Prohibition
Drug War Issues
Politics & Advocacy
Sometime in the last few months, the notion of legalizing marijuana crossed an invisible threshold. Long relegated to the margins of political discourse by the conventional wisdom, pot freedom has this year gone mainstream.
Is reason dawning for marijuana policy?
It has been helped along by everything from the Michael Phelps non-scandal to the domination of marijuana legalization questions in the Change.gov questions, which prompted President Obama to laugh off the very notion, to the economy, to the debate over the drug war in Mexico. But it has also been ineffably helped along by the lifting of the oppressive burden of Bush administration drug war dogma. There is a new freedom in the air when it comes to marijuana.
Newspaper columnists and editorial page writers from across the land have taken up the cause with gusto, as have letter writers and bloggers. Last week, even a US senator got into the act, when Sen. Jim Webb (D-VA) told CNN that marijuana legalization is "on the table."
But despite the seeming explosion of interest in marijuana legalization, the actual fact of legalization seems as distant as ever, a distant vision obscured behind a wall of bureaucracy, vested interests, and craven politicians. Drug War Chronicle spoke with some movement movers and shakers to find out just what's going on... and what's not.
"There is clearly more interest and serious discussion of whether marijuana prohibition makes any sense than I've seen at any point in my adult lifetime," said Bruce Mirken, communications director for the Marijuana Policy Project. "It's not just the usual suspects; it's people like Jack Cafferty on CNN and Senator Jim Webb, as well as editorial pages and columnists across the country."
Mirken cited a number of factors for the sudden rise to prominence of the marijuana issue. "I think it's a combination of things: Michael Phelps, the horrible situation on the Mexican border, the state of the economy and the realization that there is a very large industry out there that provides marijuana to millions of consumers completely outside the legal economy that is untaxed and unregulated," he said. "All of these factors have come together in a way that makes it much easier for people to connect the dots."
"Things started going white hot in the second week of January," said Allen St. Pierre, executive director of the National Organization for the Reform of Marijuana Laws (NORML). "We had the fallout from the Michael Phelps incident, the Change.gov marijuana question to Obama and his chuckling response, we have the Mexico violence, we have the economic issues," he counted. "All of these things have helped galvanize a certain zeitgeist that is palpable and that almost everyone can appreciate."
"The politicians are still very slow on picking up on the desires of citizens no matter how high the polling numbers go, especially on decriminalization and medical marijuana," said St. Pierre. "The polling numbers are over 70% for those, and support for legalization nationwide is now at about 42%, depending on which data set you use. Everything seems to be breaking for reform in these past few weeks, and I expect those numbers to only go up."
"It feels like we're reaching the tipping point," said Amber Langston, eastern region outreach director for Students for Sensible Drug Policy. "I've been feeling that for a couple of months now. The Michael Phelps incident sent a clear message that you can be successful and still have used marijuana. He's still a hero to lots of people," she said.
"I think we're getting close now," said Langston. "We have moved the conversation to the next level, where people are actually taking this seriously and we're not just having another fear-based discussion."
"There is definitely momentum building around marijuana issues," said Denver-based Mason Tvert, executive director of SAFER (Safer Alternatives for Enjoyable Recreation), which has built a successful strategy around comparing alcohol and marijuana. "Yet we still find ourselves in a situation where change is not happening. Up until now, people have made arguments around criminal justice savings, other economic benefits, ending the black market -- those things have got us to where we are today, but they haven't been enough to get elected officials to act," he argued.
"The problem is that there are still far too many people who see marijuana as so harmful it shouldn't be legalized," Tvert continued. "That suggests we need to be doing more to address the relative safety of marijuana, especially compared to drugs like alcohol. The good arguments above will then carry more weight. Just as a concerned parent doesn't want to reap the tax benefits of legal heroin, it's the same with marijuana. The mantra is why provide another vice. What we're saying is that we're providing an alternative for the millions who would prefer to use marijuana instead of alcohol."
With the accumulation of arguments for legalization growing ever weightier, the edifice of marijuana prohibition seems increasingly shaky. "Marijuana prohibition has become like the Soviet Empire circa 1987 or 1988," Mirken analogized. "It's an empty shell of a policy that continues only because it is perceived as being huge and formidable, but when the perception changes, the whole thing is going to collapse."
Still, translating the zeitgeist into real change remains a formidable task, said Mirken. "It is going to take hard work. All of us need to keep finding ways to keep these discussions going in the media, we need to work with open-minded legislators to get bills introduced where there can be hearings to air the facts and where we can refute the nonsense that comes from our opponents. Keeping the debate front and center is essential," he said.
Mirken is waiting for the other shoe to drop. "We have to be prepared for an empire strikes back moment," he said. "I predict that within the next year, there will be a concerted effort to scare the daylights out of people about marijuana."
Activists need to keep hammering away at both the federal government and state and local governments, Mirken said. "We are talking to members of Congress and seeing what might be doable. Even if nothing passes immediately, introducing a bill can move the discussion forward, but realistically, things are more likely to happen at the state and local level," he said, citing the legalization bill in California and hinting that MPP would try legalization in Nevada again.
Part of the problem of the mismatch between popular fervor and actual progress on reform is partisan positioning, said St. Pierre. "Even politicians who may be personally supportive and can appreciate what they see going on around them as this goes mainstream do not want to hand conservative Republicans a triangulation issue. The Democrats are begging for a certain degree of political maturity from the reform movement," he said. "They're dealing with two wars, tough economic times, trying to do health care reform. They don't want to raise cannabis to a level where it becomes contentious for Obama."
The window of opportunity for presidential action is four years down the road, St. Pierre suggested. "If Obama doesn't do anything next year, they will then be in reelection mode and unlikely to act," he mused. "I think our real shot comes after he is reelected. Then we have two years before he becomes a lame duck."
But we don't have to wait for Obama, said St. Pierre. "We expect Barney Frank and Ron Paul to reintroduce decriminalization and medical marijuana bills," he said. "I don't think they will pass this year, but we might get hearings, although I don't think that's likely until the fall."
It's not just that politicians need to understand that supporting marijuana legalization will not hurt them -- they need to understand that standing its way will. "The politicians aren't feeling the pain of being opposed to remain," St. Pierre said. "We have to take out one of those last remaining drug war zealots."
Permission to Reprint: This content is licensed under a modified Creative Commons Attribution license. Content of a purely educational nature in Drug War Chronicle appear courtesy of DRCNet Foundation, unless otherwise noted.
Comments
Impetus without initiative
I see, in this essay, a lot of impetus to organize and inspire a movement to a new level of reform activism and achievement. But I see very little initiative from leaders to actually carry forward this unique critical mass into greater more inspired political ends.
I see very little creative thinking about ways to capitalize on the momentum that we all see in the issues.
And I see even less in the way of articulate thinking about the vital issues that should not be tied to a recreation drug argument. Scott Morgan's article on Afghanistan and the efforts of this group to discuss the Afghan Mexico border national security issues should be getting much greater usage in the reform community. These are imminent threats to the national security of America. I have never had a prohib offer me a significant counter argument to the national security issues. Yet Obama gets a pass from much of the reform movement on this STUPID new Afghan initiative.
I firmly believe that we need to be out in the streets taking advantage of the momentum already happening and expanding the debate with front page news stories of anti drug war protest rallies.
NO MORE DRUG WAR!
NO MORE DRUG WAR!
NO MORE DRUG WAR!
NO MORE DRUG WAR!
May 2, 2009
PhillyNORML - 2009 Global Cannabis March
The 2009 Global Cannabis March, or Philadelphia Cannabis Festival, will be taking place on Saturday May 2, 2009. The event is still being planned, so more information will be posted as it becomes available. The GCM is an annual event that brings out hundreds of supporters, patients, and onlookers. It's an excellent opportunity to show just how popular legalization is, and to have a lot of fun. In 2008 we had our biggest one yet with over 400 people. This year we hope to top 1,000. Check back often for updates!
Saturday, May 2, 2009
Meet at Broad St. and South St. at 3:30 - 4:00pm
March towards Headhouse Square at 4:20pm
Arrive at Headhouse Square by 5:20pm
Speeches - done by 6:30pm
But we don't have to wait for Obama...
Funny, we can't count on Obama... so we continue to rely on libertarian guys like Ron Paul to fix this injustice...
Potheads can be funny... Diss 'em then kiss 'em!
Truth is treason in the kingdom of lies - Ron Paul
In reply to But we don't have to wait for Obama... by Anonymous (not verified)
hell yea
Ron Paul the only guy who knows what the people want
and for fuck sake why do hardly any voting americans know who he is well id be willing to bet that its because he dont have zillion dollar campaigns its all about money :-(
"the love of money is the root of all evil"
In reply to But we don't have to wait for Obama... by Anonymous (not verified)
THE TIME IS NOW
I think NORML and Tommy Chong on their advisory board are excellent authorities on political maturity.
Great getting active, boo on the negativity
Not trying to sound like a supportive social worker here, but why deride the movement by saying there has been very little creative thinking. Then my 'irony sense' went off after you made that accusation, but then revealed a planned march. (I hope you've filed the appropriate paper work making it legitimate) Creative thinking usually comes up against a huge brick wall when it comes to things of a sensitive nature. Marijuana legalization is one of those. I advocate hand-holding the opposition until they realize the fallacy of their ways.
I think that talking about health care is the best method to do this. We need healthcare reform. This encompasses a compassionate stance on marijuana policy with clear objectives: 1) helping serious patients satisfy their medical needs 2) lowering the risk of using pharmaceuticals and their cost, 3) lowering costs associated with treatment of illicit drug users via utilization of more rehabilitation and less punitive measures.
If you get people agreeing with you they are less likely to rebut you. However, marching (especially one not officially registered with the appropriate administration) is one way to have the people we are trying to convince put up their 'blinders' to our reasoning.
I support your advocacy and wish that you would not look upon facets of the movement which you believe to be less than creative.
Hoam Rogh
In reply to Great getting active, boo on the negativity by Anonymous (not verified)
I see
a lack of creative thinking and initiative among too many reform group leaders in taking advantage of the critical mass and new found momentum that is the topic of the essay. There seems no sense of grasping the immediacy of the momentum. Momentum continues only when fed. Momentum grows only increased initiative.
In reply to I see by aahpat (not verified)
We have momentum, but not critical mass
The problem is that there is just not enough support yet for legalizing marijuana. When we start seeing lots of polls coming out showing that more than half of Americans support legalizing marijuana, then we'll see a lot more momentum in our law making bodies to get that done. Most politicians are not going to go out on a limb on marijuana legalization unless the majority of the voters they count on to get reelected are for it. And if they have higher aspirations in national politics they probably won't go out on a limb for marijuana legalization even if the majority in their districts are for it because the majority of Americans are still against it.
These are some pretty exciting times for those of us who want to see marijuana legalized. Polls are showing that more than 40% of voters are for it and it seems that the percentage is increasing faster than before. We have a lot of people in the media coming out for legalization and more and more politicians coming out for it. The momentum is definitely going in the right direction, but critical mass is something we do not have yet.
I've been saying for a long time that I think marijuana will be legalized sometime between 2020 and 2030. By then we'll most likely have a pretty solid majority for it and our senior lawmakers will be people who grew up after marijuana became popular. Right now the most powerful lawmakers still tend to be people who grew up before marijuana use took off here and the old farts who have never smoked pot tend to be the ones who are most afraid of it and most opposed to legalizing it.
With the way things have been going now, I think we might possibly see marijuana legalized before 2020. Within five years we are likely to see polls coming out showing that more than half of all American adults are for legalizing marijuana. What will be important to polioticians then is where the older voters stand because older voters tend to actually exercise their right to vote a lot more than younger voters. That's just a fact of life. Old people actually vote and young people often don't. A few politicians are jumping on the legalization bandwagon now. A lot more will when the polls show more than 50% of the voting public support it. Others who are for it but too afraid to come out publicly for it will wait until the polls show a good bit more than 50% support with fairly high support from older voters before they jump on the bandwagon.
We're several years away from legalizing marijuana still. it's going to happen, but there is no way it will happen before a mojority of voters are for it, and it's likely to take a few years after we see majority support for it.
In the mean time we should need to keep pushing on. We need more states to decrminalize. We need more states to pass medical marijuana laws. We need to keep up the pressure so that our opponents see the writing on the wall and start to join us. We want them to realize that it is going to happen anyway and get them talking in terms of what would be the best way to set the whole thing up, rather than just fighting us at every turn.
If it happens in the next decade it will be sometime in the latter part of the decade. It will be because the government is swimming in debt and it looks like it is only going to get worse because the baby boomers have started retiring and collecting Social Security and Medicaid benefits. The problems with Mexican organized crime are not likley to be resolved and the people are starting to figure out that these organizations make the lion's share of their profits from marijuana sales and their existing marijuana distribution networks are perfect conduits through which they move their other far more dangerous drugs.
Economic arguments will gain even more traction, as will arguments that point out the similarities between the prohibition of alcohol and marijuana prohibition. We need people to understand that black market for drugs is mostly just a black market for marijuana and that taking marijuana away from organized crime will hurt them severely. It's the backbone of the illegal drugs trade. In the coming years were going to bring a lot of people on board who are dead set against legalization today. They just need to see that we are doing more harm than good with our laws.
Organizations like NORML and the MPP are doing good work. They don't have magic wands. They can't make the powers that be come out for full legalization. All they can really do successfully now is push for incremental changes. I fully expect to see more states decriminalize and more get medical marijuana laws in the next few years and this will in large part be due to the efforts of these organizations. I think a good part of the increase we've seen in support for legalization among the voting public has come as a result of the seeds they've planted in the media over the years and I hope they'll still be active in newspapers, on television and on the Internet. The lobbying and attempts to shape public opinion are slowly but surely paying off. We can't expect them to change things overnight or to change things without an awful lot of help from the rest of us.
Be patient. Weâll get there.
In reply to We have momentum, but not critical mass by Anonymous (not verified)
I started writing a response
to this filibuster but there are simply too many things that I vehemently disagree with.
You have no concept of anything that I am talking about.
In reply to Great getting active, boo on the negativity by Anonymous (not verified)
Old thinking is not creative...
Old thinking is not creative... especially when you've already determined the sick to be more 'exceptional'... and somehow more worthy... of their constitutional rights.
Authoritarian Exceptionism is the disease... and the constitution is the cure... and despite what the authoritarians teach these days... the constitution remains the supreme law of the land!
I support war on all fronts because all wars have many fronts!
But claiming exclusivity and exceptionism only furthers authoritarian intrusions into our privacys by the purveyors of gods and gov'ts!
In reply to Great getting active, boo on the negativity by Anonymous (not verified)
How about this?
How about we all look at this mess in a new way? The best reason to legalize, is simple, to take control of the drug trade away from the criminals. What in the hell is so hard to understand? The drug trade is here and has been for nearly forty years, and it is controlled by criminals, ie: street gangs, cartels, even the Taliban. If I hear one more "official", talk about not legalizing to protect the children, I will ask him/her, do you trust criminals to watch over your kids? And the amount of money that these outlaws gather tax free, is in the billions. So our "war on drugs" becomes a full employment act for criminals. Come on America, our politicians are supporting an ongoing criminal enterprise. The conservative right wingnuts, were voted out in November, demand that the ones that are left, do our bidding, and stop supporting the criminals.
Californians: Make Your Voice Heard
A new Field Poll released yesterday found that 56% of California voters favor legalizing (recreational) marijuana and taxing the sales. This is what California Assembly Bill 390 proposes to do.
If you live in California and favor legalizing marijuana for adults, YOU can make it happen. Tell your state representatives to support California Assembly Bill 390. It's easy. Visit yes390.org
In reply to Californians: Make Your Voice Heard by Anonymous (not verified)
Not only does AB-390
propose to legalize but the act of its introduction, I am sure, served to add momentum to this more favorable public opinion poll. As it added momentum to the movement across the country.
We need more actions like this across the nation.
In reply to Not only does AB-390 by aahpat (not verified)
"Not only does AB-390
"Not only does AB-390 propose to legalize but the act of its introduction, I am sure, served to add momentum to this more favorable public opinion poll. As it added momentum to the movement across the country.
We need more actions like this across the nation."
That's very true. I doubt that bill passes, but it does wonders for the debate. People are starting to see that there is a real chance that marijuana will be legalized sometime in the coming years. They're arguing about how we should do it if we do it. They're arguing about taxing schemes and that sort of thing. They're starting to become cognizant about the enormous amounts of marijuana being consumed in this country and the enormity of the money being made, often by organized crime. Eventually the main focus of the debate will shift from whether we should legalize to how we should do it. Then we'll know we're getting close to seeing it legalized.
In reply to "Not only does AB-390 by Anonymous (not verified)
We have the momentum
And we have Obama to thank for pissing off reformers and getting them into a more activist mode.
Sen. Webb's S-714 could have reform of the entire drug war on the table by the next election cycle. If your senators support it write to them and thank them. If your senators don't yet support it badger, cudgel, browbeat and beg them to support it. The drug warriors are putting up their own bill to counter S-714 so the fight for ending the war on drugs is actually going on in the United States congress as we speak.
Write letters to newspapers. Participate in newspaper forums about drug related news stories. Get people together to hold street rallies at the offices of state and national legislators. And support only organizations that seem to grasp the momentum and are working with it instead of denying it.
The greed of our lawmakers will result in legalization!
When I heard that my state legislature was supporting legalization something Ive been working for for well over thirty years I knew we were going to win. Unfortunatly its the greed for more money to piss away on wasteful causes is the impetus for this change but if the end justifys the means then im ok with it. It didnt take long once the state started collecting taxes from our medical dispenseries for the legislature to start seeing dollar signs. I can see the day in the not to distant future where our state is advertising Calif. Marijuana like they advertise the lottery now. Smoke California Marijuana it's good and it's good for our state! or maybe a parody of Arnold's advertisements for tourism California Marijuana How soon can you Start? I believe Mr. Obama is not going to take a stand on the issue but people like Barney Frank and Ron Paul who are in my view politically fearless will continue to carry the banner what ever their motivation. I have long been of the view point that if everyone who smoked
would get out and vote and let their feelings be known we would have had legalization long before now but due to the stigma of using the evil weed and since we all need to work people wont come out and stand up for legalization. I'm as guilty as many others due to my employment situation i cant come out in the open and protest but I can fight for legalization on the internet and writing letters to all my representatives and lobby constantly outside my work place for legalization. I encourage others to do the same let our representatives know how you feel you use marijuana you vote you are a gainfully employed taxpaying American who doesn't appreciate being made into a criminal for using a natural substance that is surely less harmfull than alcohol. I honestly believe the government really has no idea how many of there really are and the kind of revenue that will generated by legalization.
The knowledge that prohibitionists are serial murderers/with an
infant to elderly aged mind controlled sex slave racket will make the drug war and the war and terror it funds ends. The prohibitionists have always been the cartel;maybe even worse than the cartel. MK Ultra and project paperclip prove it!
It may not even matter what California legislators think
if support for cannabis legalization in CA is at 56% in the polls. If they won't act, a referendum can settle it just as well. If we work hard enough 2010 will mark the official beginning of the end for alcohol supremacism.
There was a poll from Washington Post yesterday that had national support for cannabis legalization at 46%, about the same as those opposed, those they didn't specify the % opposed. The surge in support for cannabis legalization is amazing. This news was fairly well buried in a story mostly about changing attitudes on gay marriage, and focused on the reduced significance of 'social issues' as a wedge issue for the Repubs.
Keep up the pressure!
In reply to It may not even matter what California legislators think by Anonymous (not verified)
"There was a poll from
"There was a poll from Washington Post yesterday that had national support for cannabis legalization at 46%, about the same as those opposed, those they didn't specify the % opposed."
It was 52%. See question # 45: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/polls/postpoll_042609.html
We're getting there. In a few more years we'll see poll after poll coming out with more people for legalization than against it. Things should really start to heat up then.
In reply to "There was a poll from by Anonymous (not verified)
In a few more years
I'll be dead of old age.
The momentum is there NOW.
In reply to In a few more years by aahpat (not verified)
Momentum is not enough. If
Momentum is not enough. If most of the politicians and the majority of voters are against legalization, it's not going to happen. We'll get there, but it is still going to take several years. If you are going to die soon and you are staking your all your happiness on marijuana legalization, you're likely to die a very bitter person. If I die tomorrow I'll die knowing marijuana will be legal in the not so distant future, and I'd be content with that.
In reply to Momentum is not enough. If by Anonymous (not verified)
I
vehemently disagree!
In reply to Momentum is not enough. If by Anonymous (not verified)
Sell your Democratic
Party line to someone else. I am not a Democrat. I do not have to subscribe to their rock the boat submissive masochism.
In reply to Sell your Democratic by aahpat (not verified)
I'm not a Democrat either.
I'm not a Democrat either. I'm just a pragmatic person who understands the realities we are faced with. You want something that is just not going to happen. You want a government that is against legalizing marijuana to do it over the objection of the majority of the people. It ain't gonna happen. You need to take an injection of reality here.
You are right about the momentum. It's picking up steam in our favor. We do need to keep the pressure up. It's just entirely unlreasitic to expect marijuana to be legal in the next couple of years. The momentum is in our favor and that isn't likey to change. As the years go on more and more people will be for legalizing marijuana. We'll hit a majority in a few years and a lot more politicians will come on board with us. We'll get international law changed to allow for countries to legalize marijuana without facing sanctions for violation of treaties and conventions on drugs. We'll see lot's of other countries legalizing it and we'll eventually legalize it. It's just not going to happen overnight. Screaming and kicking and eating our own isn't going to change that.
In reply to I'm not a Democrat either. by Anonymous (not verified)
You have no
concept of how public opinion moves. Or how democracy works.
You incessantly put the cart before the horse. Do nothing until the public opinion rises to the cause. that is both stupid and backassward.
Public opinion moves on instigation and inspiration. Motivations that are compelled by ever more visible support for something.
The reason that so many things are happening now is because reformers have been pushing the issue and forcing the Democrats to take stands. As Obama is pushed to take stands contrary to reform positions he inspires more support for reform. The louder reform is the more other politicians become conflicted between Obama's drug war crap and the growing public support.
The louder we get, the greater our show of support because more people are willing to stand up as they see larger and larger crowds.
You "claim" to not be Democrat but you are arguing a Democrat status quo position that I have heard for GENERATIONS. A status quo position that drove me out of the Democratic Party. And that is driving me away from the reform organizations of today that seem bent on following your DO NOTHING perspective.
In reply to You have no by aahpat (not verified)
"Do nothing until the public
"Do nothing until the public opinion rises to the cause." "And that is driving me away from the reform organizations of today that seem bent on following your DO NOTHING perspective."
All I'm saying is that you have to be realistic and not expect marijuana to become legal in the next couple of years. I am not at all suggesting that we do nothing. We need to do more than ever. We do need to take advantage of the momentum. I think we are going to see a lot of progress in things we can get done now, things like decriminalization in a another state or two and medical marijuana in more states in the next few years. We'll see public support for legalization growing and more politicians coming on board. We should not expect this to happen automatically. We need to push for it.
I'm tired of this discussion because you aren't going to be happy unless we can get marijuana legalized in the next couple of years. I can't tell you that is going to happen because I know it won't, the support isn't there yet. If people from NORML or the MPP say something along the same lines, you get mad at them. If they can't force our government that is against legalization to do it over the objection of the majority of voters they are do nothing losers. That's an irrational and unreasonable position to take, but that's where you are. You want them to pull a magic wand out and make everything all better or you are going to be mad at them.
We're all on the same team here and I wish we could be on the same page because we'd be a lot stronger united than divided. We should be supporting the organizations that are fighting for our cause instead of tearing them down. You won't support them though unless they meet your unreasonable and impossible demands.
You said something earlier about being dead within a few years, and maybe why you are so adamant that marijuana must be legalized in the next couple of years. You're desperate and desperate people are often irrational. If you are sick and don't have long to live I am very sorry about that. I wish I could make you better. I wish I could tell you marijuana will be legalized in the next couple of years. The reason I won't do that is because I know it is not possible. We just don't have enough support for it yet among voters or within the government. We still have a lot of work to do, a lot of minds to change. It may take ten or fifteen years to get it legalized, maybe even a little longer. Maybe we'll see it happen within five or six years, but that's a long shot. There is no way it's going to happen in the next couple of years, not without a miracle. Two years from now we still probably won't have a majority of voters supporting legalization and we'll still have most of the same old anti-marijuana lawmakers in power who wouldn't go for legalization even if a slight majority were for it.
In reply to "Do nothing until the public by Anonymous (not verified)
I'm pretty damned
tired of this conversation too. You have not read a word I have written. You simply repeat your tired status quo defensiveness.
Masturbation never won a revolution.
In reply to "Do nothing until the public by Anonymous (not verified)
Realistic?
In the famous words of Peter O' Toole in Lawnrence of Arabia: "Who is to say what can or can't be done?"
AQUABA!
In reply to "Do nothing until the public by Anonymous (not verified)
52%
Is a majority, not a huge majority but it's still more than the percentage of eligible voters who voted for Obama. I think aahpat is right, and you are missing the point he's making.
I'm pro-choice on EVERYTHING!
In reply to 52% by Moonrider (not verified)
The Zogby poll with 52%
The Zogby poll with 52% support just came out. It's the first poll ever where a majority supported legalization. Personally, I don't trust Zogby polls, but if we see some other polls coming out with similar results that would really be something. It would be a major milestone that will make legalization come that much quicker.
I don't really disagree with aaphat about much at all. We were having a pretty stupid argument. He thought I was advocating that we do nothing, that we just wait because there isn't enough support to legalize. I'm not sure why he thought I was saying that. I was really just trying to say that people shouldn't get discouraged if it doesn't happen right away and there was nothing unreasonable about the reform organizations talking about how it will likely take several years to finally get marijuana legalized. They aren't saying we should do nothing until we have enough support to legalize. No one is saying that. What people are saying is that we need to work harder than ever now.
In reply to Momentum is not enough. If by Anonymous (not verified)
I'm not making light of dying, but....
I'm not making light of dying, but....if you know you're terminal do the rest of us a favor and take some of the prohibitionists with you!
I can hardly wait for my terminal disease... woe to the fuckers on my list of prohibitionists criminals!
Fuck going quietly into the night... time to go medieval on their criminal asses!
In reply to "There was a poll from by Anonymous (not verified)
Pot more popular than congress
Another part of this poll shows that Democrats in Congress have a 45% approval rating. the Republicans have a 30% approval rating. For the second time this year polls have come out showing that marijuana legalization is more popular than the United States Congress that prohibits the legalization of marijuana.
Get this fact into the media and the congress will turn around real fast.
Window of oppurtunity?
The window of opportunity for presidential action is four years down the road, St. Pierre suggested.
Excuse me? This is the same bullshit reasoning always dished out by the Democrats. We can't do what the people want because there is still some opposition. What are they waiting for -- polls that show 80% support, 90%, 95%, 99.9999%.
What needs to happen is more of the tactics that MPP and the Libertarian party have use to target drug warriors in their districts. That is what got rid of Bob Barr in Congress and ultimately lead to his "road to Damascus" conversion experience. He now works with the MPP and the LP.
This change of heart probably wouldn't happen with the most intransigent of the "slow learners", but they should be kicked out on their ear. I say start with the Democrat fence sitters, the lets-wait-four-more-years-or-more crowd. Let them know that THEY will be targeted for all of the negative anti-marijuana hysteria they promote. We won't have to wait four years for that.
And has for convincing people that it isn't dangerous, how about gutting the ONDCP -- totally de-funding it and their propaganda smear campaigns. We can't afford it anyway.
In reply to Window of oppurtunity? by Anonymous (not verified)
As the essay makes clear
Both the window of opportunity and the momentum are there and now. Not in another four years.
The Democrats are always promising reform during campaigns and then stalling, doing nothing until after the next campaign. I was a third generation Democrat. I got up with their endless stringing along bullshit back in 1996 after supporting the Democrats since the 1960's.
Fortunately, the state level NORML people are activists who are not co-opted by the Democrats like the national office appears to be.
In reply to Window of oppurtunity? by Anonymous (not verified)
...still some opposition?
There is a little more than just some opposition. The majority of Americans are still opposed to legalizing marijuana. It's not going to happen until the politicians see that a majority support legalization. And 51% probably won't cut it because the politicians will look at the demographics of those for and against and will see that most of the support is among younger voters and most of the strong opposition is from older voters. They're a lot more afraid of the older voters than the younger voters because historically older voters are far more likely to actually go to the polls and vote than younger voters. We may very well have to wait until more than 60% of voters support legalization before we see a major push in our federal law making bodies to allow for it. These guys pay very close attention to the numbers and they analyze them carefully to try to determine what they will mean in the voting booths.
In reply to ...still some opposition? by Anonymous (not verified)
Get the polls out of your .....
The polls follow the people. The people do not follow the polls.
Because there is an obvious increasing momentum the organizations should all be designing new more assertive campaigns to build on the momentum. To be doing otherwise is to throw a great opportunity out the window.
In reply to Get the polls out of your ..... by aahpat (not verified)
"The polls follow the
"The polls follow the people. The people do not follow the polls."
Our politicians follow the polls. They're the ones that have to change the laws. We aren't going to have true legalization until the feds open things up for it. They don't want to do that, and won't until they see a political advantage in doing it. Right now most politicians who suuport legalization are afraid to come out for it because they believe it will cost them votes, get them unlected or prevent them from getting elected in the first place. That's not going to change much until they see more support among the voters for legalization.
In reply to "The polls follow the by Anonymous (not verified)
"Our politicians follow the polls."
Then the congress should be eager to end the pot prohibition today.
The ABC News Washington Post poll placed pot legalization at 46% favorability. It placed the job favorability of the Democrats at 45% and the favorability of the GOP in congress at 30%.
Pot legalization is more favorable than the congress that prohibits pot legalization.
That is the poll that congress is looking at. It is the poll that we should be hammering into the media. We should be encouraged and inspired to greater action by such numbers to help people to make their decision. but noooo, your too busy kissing Democrat butt and telling reformers to wait... wait.... wait.......
In reply to "Our politicians follow the polls." by aahpat (not verified)
I'm not kissing anyone's
I'm not kissing anyone's butt and I'm not telling anyone to wait. I was just telling you to be realistic. Yeah, we've had some polls come out showing greater than 40% support for legalization. The majority are still against it though. A strong majority are for legal medical marijuana but it's only legal in a few states and not under federal law.
What is you want people to do? How are we supposed to get marijuana legalized within a couple of years when the majority are against and the government is strongly against it? Do you think telling them marijuana legalization is more popular than them is going to change their minds? They don't give a crap about that. They care about getting reelected.
Quit your damned whining. People are doing the best they can. We're seeing a lot of positive changes that most of us are excited about. Nothing's good enough for you though. You want miracles, and if you don't get your miracles we're not going to hear the end of it. Fine. I'm ignoring your whiney ass.
In reply to I'm not kissing anyone's by Anonymous (not verified)
Majority against it?
The poll quoted says that 46% are opposed, as well as the 46% for the legalization. I know a heck of a lot of "old people" who are closet smokers. I would say that the poll shows that the majority is NOT against it, if you include the "don't now" on the support side. There is presently, according the the poll mentioned, NO MAJORITY on either side of the issue! What I see is now a deadlock,destined to soon change us, supporters to the majority of the voters!
In reply to Majority against it? by mlang52 (not verified)
Which poll was that? The
Which poll was that? The only poll I know of with 46% for legalization had 52% against it. All national polls so far have had more people against it than for it, and those where there is a demographics breakdown show that the biggest part of the support is from younger voters. There have been no national polls yet where a majority supported marijuana legalization.
In reply to I'm not kissing anyone's by Anonymous (not verified)
You are too confused
First you start stalking me and harassing me for my advocacy of public protest tactics that I firmly believe will take advantage of and increase the momentum that reform has.
Now you ask what I want to do as if that has never been the starting point of this argument.
You are confused. You have no idea what I are talking about yet you attack and criticize me incessantly.
Thanks for proving what I have been saying, that you do not even read my posts you simplistically react to phrases and the occasional sentence but you really know NOTHING about what I advocate.
I think your only real objective is to pick fights with the people on these forums who appear to be trying hard to promote and escalation of reform. You just want to distract reformers from their advocacy. Make reformers less effective.
Leave me alone! I'll waste no more time on your provocations and distractions.
In reply to You are too confused by aahpat (not verified)
Sorry it seemed that way. I
Sorry it seemed that way. I never said anything about public protests though. I think you had arguments going with more than one person posting anonymously. Maybe that was part of the reason it seemed like we kept misreading one another.
I don't want to fight with you. I won't post to you again. I think mainly you just misunderstood what I was trying to say originally and we ended up going back and forth and back and forth. It makes a little more sense to me now that I know you thought I was the guy who said something about public protests you were involved in. Maybe that's why you thought I was suggesting people do nothing. If I'm going to keep posting here I'll pick a screen name so that doesn't happen again. Maybe if I had a screen name this time we could have resolved our little issue a long time ago. Really the main difference of opinion had to do with when marijuana was likely to be legalized and whether the reform organizations are doingh the things they need to be doing. Whatever. I'm sorry we wasted so much time and fought over nothing. Have a good day.
In reply to ...still some opposition? by Anonymous (not verified)
You are wrong
This month a Washington Post ABC News poll reported:
In general, do you favor or oppose legalizing the possession of small amounts of marijuana for personal use?
4/24/09
Favor 46
Oppose 52
No opinion 2 (margin +/-3%)
A Rassmusen poll earlier this year
"40% say it should be, while 46% disagree. Fourteen percent (14%) are not sure which course is better." (margin +/-3%)
In the more recent poll the 52% opposed is weak with 2% no opinion and a 3% margin. The 14% undecided added to the 3% margin in the Rasmussen poll makes the difference of 40% for to 46 opposed trivial.
But the important point is that it is people and their political actions that help convince other people to decide and/or change their opinions. You don't sit and wait for opinion to swing around to your favor. That is stupid.
Public opinion is swinging to reform this year BECAUSE of all of the negative action from Obama combined with the increased war on the border. The momentum is increasing and that is something that advocates should take advantage of and nurture.
Public opinion is escalating against the war as the war escalates on all of its fronts. Mexico, Afghanistan and soon the streets of America. You want to sit on your thumb. I want to be out in the streets encouraging more people to express their opposition.
Its the squeaky wheel that gets the grease in American politics. NORML saw this when Obama sneered at reform. donations to them went through the roof afterward.
You do not know what you are talking about and perspectives like yours are going to cost reform a major opportunity to springboard the issue forward.
For the record. I am not talking about marijuana reform. I oppose the war on drugs. You ignore most of what I write because of your myopic pot only perspective. You cast yourself as being as much an enemy of mine as any drug warrior is.
In reply to You are wrong by aahpat (not verified)
I'm not sitting on my thumb.
I'm not sitting on my thumb. I'm not waiting for anything, nor am I suggesting anyone wait. I was just telling you not to get your panties in a wad if it isn't legalized in a couple of years. Be patient. It's going to take a while. That doesn't mean people aren't going to be working hard to change things. All I was saying is that realistically marijuana isn't going to be legalized in the next couple of years. You're the one not paying attention to what is being written here. Where have I ever said that people should wait, that they should do nothing? I haven't said that, not once.
And the reason I'm talking about marijuana is because that is what this thread is about. It's also the only currently illegal drug that has any chance of being legalized in the next few years. Drugs like meth may never be legalized. But that's a whole other topic.
In reply to I'm not sitting on my thumb. by Anonymous (not verified)
medical thought?
What if one was bleeding to death in an ER from a major trauma? would you want to get all the x-rays done and permits signed before initiating treatment? Procrastination could be fatal! What if you substitute cancer for pot legalization? Would you want to wait to treat the cancer? Would you consult ten cancer specialists, to find the majority, before making a decision, taking months to do so? Or, would you go after the problem, head on, when the diagnosis was certain. It would make a difference in one's survival, so far as what decision one should make on one's road to treatment and cure. Should the doctors sit on their thumbs? That is what the present state of affairs is. It is a cancer eating at the fabric of our society. It is destroying, college kids' lives, all the while claiming to "protect the children". We should be actively educating the "I don't knows" until we are well over 50%! Waiting for a change in the polls, "for a couple of years" is not an option. Although I, sometimes, perceive aahpat as a "wild" radical I cannot disagree on this thought!
What is prohibition really doing "for the children"?
Kids get drugs at school just as easy as prisoners get them in prisons! The entire system has failed to protect the children at all! If you expect to decrease the availability of drugs to kids, you are going to have to change the present system. Right now, we have kids getting drugs, at an age where they have no sense of responsibility. I feel it is all because the kids are being victimized by a prohibition system that encourages drug dealers, who don't card, to sell to any age kid they want. Legalization and regulation would likely have a much larger positive effect on preventing childhood drug use, than the present system Look at alcohol and cigarettes. They have been decreased in availability to children because of regulation. Continue the drug prohibition and the dealers' reign and we have more kids exposed to the drugs every day! Prohibitionists are, indirectly, supporting the dealers and the drug sales to their own kids! I guess they don't' think too much of what they are really doing "for the children".
In reply to medical thought? by mlang52 (not verified)
Damn Straight!
And every day that the reform movement does not do its utmost to change this policy is another day that children are exposed to more drugs and crime. Today. In real time. Not in a few years. Not when a majority agree. Today.
I have an index card that I hand out to people with the following argument on it.
In the War on Drugs: Addict dealers and gangsters donât âjust say no' when children come seeking drugs.
Children too often donât âjust say noâ when addict dealers and gangsters entice them into drug use.
Legalized and regulated drug distribution would put responsible adult supervision in control of drug sales. Responsible licensed adults who, unlike the addict dealers and gangsters of prohibition, would âjust say noâ when curious children seek to buy.
In reply to medical thought? by mlang52 (not verified)
Who is suggesting procrastination?
I must not have communicated my point very well to begin with. I wasn't saying we should wait for anything. We should be going full steam ahead. All I was trying to say is that people shouldn't get discouraged if it doesn't happen within a couple years.
Some people were getting upset about Allen St. Pierre saying "the window of opportunity for presidential action is four years down the road..." Some people took that to mean that NORML wouldn't do anything until then. I don't think that's what he meant at all. I think what he was saying is that Obama isn't likely to do anything until after he is reelected (if he gets reelected) St. Pierre said, "I think our real shot comes after he is reelected. Then we have two years before he becomes a lame duck." He's not saying NORML should wait several years before they do anything. He's looking at the situation and trying to guess when Obama will do something if he does anything. I don't know if Obama will ever come out for legalization. From what he has said I kind of doubt he will. It doesn't really matter that much though because it won't happen until the legislature votes for it, and then we just have to hope we have a president in power who won't veto the legislation.
I think what are reform organization are saying is that we have to work harder than ever now. I agree with that. I think we should be supporting these organizations now more than ever. What I was trying to say is that people should get upset if it doesn't happen in a the next couple of years. They shouldn't get upset with these organizations for talking about how it may be a few years before we can get it done, because they're right. They aren't saying we should wait for anything. They're saying we need to work harder than ever.
We've been trying to get marijuana legalized for decades now. It's looking more and more like it's really going to happen in the not too distant future. It should only take a few years for us to get the majority behind us. Maybe it will happen quicker than that. That would be great. I hate to be too optimistic with predictions like that though because then you just set yourself up for disappointment. I do think that realistically marijuana legalization is several years down the line, but that doesn't mean we should wait around and do nothing until conditions are better for legalization. The harder we work now the quicker it will get done. I think our reform organizations are thinking along those same lines.
I hope I've cleared things up. I'm not here to fight. The whole purpose in posting on this thread was to say be patient, don't get discouraged if it doesn't happen in the next couple of years. We're going to get this thing done. Somehow that has come across to at least two of you that I'm trying to tell people to sit around on their butts and do nothing for a few years. That's not what I meant at all and I'm sorry if I didn't properly communicate what I really meant to say.
Not sure about this argument...
"The problem is that there are still far too many people who see marijuana as so harmful it shouldn't be legalized," Tvert continued. "That suggests we need to be doing more to address the relative safety of marijuana, especially compared to drugs like alcohol. The good arguments above will then carry more weight. Just as a concerned parent doesn't want to reap the tax benefits of legal heroin, it's the same with marijuana. The mantra is why provide another vice. What we're saying is that we're providing an alternative for the millions who would prefer to use marijuana instead of alcohol."
God bless Mason Tvert for all of his hard work, but I don't know if this is one of his best arguments. If we say we want to provide an alternative for the millions who prefer to use marijuana instead of alcohol, we're saying that marijuana use will go way up if we legalize it, that millions more will smoke it. That's one of the things that scares marijuana legalization opponents the most, and personally, I doubt marijuana use will just go through the roof when we legalize it. My bet is that most people who want to smoke it already smoke it. We'll see some increase in use, but it won't be that dramatic. More than half of all adults born in the second half of the 20th Century have already tried marijuana, adults under sixty. We couldn't possibly even double the percentage that try it. The percentage who try it will go up some, but not that much, and it's not really likely that we'll see a great increase in the number of people who continue to do it after they try it. Look at the numbers around the world. Look at the Netherlands. A smaller percentage of the Dutch smoke marijuana than Americans and it's legal for all intents and purposes there. There is no country with a substantially larger percentage of its population than ours smoking marijuana. It's just not for everyone. A lot of people try it and most smoke it a few times or maybe even for a few years, but most end up leaving it alone, even in a place like the Netherlands where it is practically legal (and has been since 1976).
I can't believe there are that many people here just waiting for it to finally become legal so they can smoke it. Most who want to smoke it are already smoking it and when we legalize it we aren't going to see that big of an increase in use. I agree 100% that it is safer than alcohol, and that it would be good if a lot of problem drinkers switched to marijuana. I also know though from the statistics and personal experience that most who smoke marijuana also drink alcohol. The other side knows this too and they always seem to bring that fact up when we talk about marijuana as an alternative to alcohol. They poke holes in the "safer alternative" argument and then accuse you of encouraging people to smoke marijuana. And of course they always say we shouldn't legalize marijuana because then we'll have all these people driving while high and doing all these other "terrible" things. I like to be able to come back and say that most everyone who wants to smoke it is already smoking it. All the things they are worried about all already happening, if they are going to happen.
People should only make arguments they believe. If you think marijuana use will go way up when it is legalized, maybe you should incorporate that belief in your arguments somehow. Just please consider that a massive increase in use is one of the things that scares the other side the most, and maybe reconsider this belief that you have. If you believe this then really you have to believe that marijuana prohibition is, well, working. It's really keeping a lot of people from smoking weed. I don't believe that for second. There is no evidence of it. In fact the evidence points to the conclusion that the laws have very little impact on the percentage of people who will smoke marijuana. Most people who want to smoke it are already smoking it.
After Re-election?
What's the matter? Do you really enjoy being lied to and made fun of? When the President diss'd the same people that got him elected, he lost my vote. I won't give it to him in 2012. He seems to think, as you do, that Presidents serve an 8-year term. BS! They serve a 4-year term, according to my Constitution. And, if they're acceptable and haven't thrown mud in my face, they might expect another 4 years. Yet, at this point, he's lost my support. He's another "it's ok for me to do it but it's NOT ok for you to do it" type. The "King" got himself a new pair of comfy shoes and he thinks it's an entire wardrobe. NOT! The Emperor Wears No Clothes!
Re"not sure of this argument" and Mason Tvert/SAFER
I think I see Mason's argument differently, he's saying we have to and should be able to make people more comfortable with cannabis by pointing out, with his trademark focus, that cannabis is a safer alternative to alcohol. That seems like an unassailable argument. In a rational world wouldn't judges be telling serious alcohol abusers who've violated the rights of others that they are not allowed to use alcohol, but they can use cannabis? Instead, people on probation or parole, even if they are under an alcohol restriction, are tested more effectively for weed than for alcohol, because alcohol leaves the system so much more quickly.
Mason says "the mantra is why provide another vice". That line of prohibitionists would be somewhat harder to counter if cannabis was as dangerous as alcohol. Since alcohol is far more deadly and dangerous to health of users and victims than cannabis, the direct answer to their mantra is: because we need a safer alternative to alcohol. Not for the large majority who use alcohol responsibly but for those who just can't handle alcohol.You have to be a bloody fool to prefer that a pregnant woman or mean drunk or potential child molester use alcohol instead of cannabis. People want to call cannabis a vice, I might not bother to argue with them, but instead point out that there's a big different between a vice and a killer vice, which alcohol not uncommonly is. Kills and maims the body, and the spirit.
No one is predicting an increase in cannabis use under legalization but there is no need to shy away from the possibility either. Alcohol and cannabis are in competition and if some people switch towards cannabis from alcohol after legalization that is a public health positive, and nothing to be defensive about. There's a lot of people taking exorbitantly priced products of big pharma with nasty side effects and if some of them switch to cannabis based pain relief, that's also a good thing
-newageblues
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