Kleiman Addresses His Prop 19 Editorial

Prof. Kleiman has responded to concerns raised over his remarks during the Prop 19 campaign in California, predicting that Prop 19 would cause prices to plummet and that the feds would have had to intervene in ways going beyond how they've dealt with the medical marijuana trade. He doesn't see that happening in Washington State; he thinks it may well happen in Colorado. He called it a "fair question."

Seattle skyline
Kleiman did not address the argument I raised in my post last night for why I doubt his analysis. I reasoned that continuing federal prohibition would have prevented Prop 19 from causing the kind of price drop from occurring in California, in the same way that the extensive medical marijuana industry hasn't seen price drops -- because it's too risky to create the industrial level grows and distribution systems that would be needed to achieve that kind of price drop -- a point raised by his coauthors during recent talks and fora.

I'm not making anything out of the fact that Kleiman hasn't addressed that point, by the way -- I don't know that he's read my post yet, and that particular point did not appear in the mainstream media articles he surely did read. Nor do I think that much should be made of it in 2013. But that's how I see that particular point, and therefore how I view that two and a half year old editorial.

I'm still cautiously optimistic, after reading the response, maybe even a little "excited" (I confess) as Kleiman wrote that he and his colleagues are feeling. Some of my colleagues have commented, and I tend to agree, that a cautious approach to implementing the Washington initiative is what will have the best chance of threading the federal needle and moving legalization forward -- especially in Washington, where the law allows for fewer licensed sales outlets and doesn't have home growing as Colorado does. And Washington or parts of it may provide our best shot at getting something resembling meaningful federal cooperation.

Some of my colleagues probably disagree with me, and many undoubtedly feel we should be wary. As a practical matter, I agree that we should be wary -- it's our responsibility as advocates to be wary, whoever the state decides to bring in. But it's also not like we get to decide who does the work on this -- our direct power to influence this ended on election day -- and I wasn't really expecting it to be someone from the all-out legalization camp.

As I wrote last night, time will tell -- about Kleiman et al's work, and about the future of I-502 and marijuana legalization in Washington State.

Location: 
WA
United States
Permission to Reprint: This article is licensed under a modified Creative Commons Attribution license.
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I-502 has a clause in it that

I-502 has a clause in it that may prove to be a thorn in the side of the revenue hungry legislators,,licensing,production fees,taxes and distribution are supposed to address removing the black market.

All legislators have as a reference is black market or mmj prices and pricing legal retail marijuana at the same exorbitant price as mmj will only underwrite a black market,not reduce it. Someone,,and I don't think Kleiman has the business sense to realize is that trying to price a plant that costs pennies to grow at the price level estimated will allow illegal growers and dealers to increase their prices and they already have their customers.

If the federal government can keep production small enough and indoors then they will get to keep hemp off the open market claiming that illegal growers would hide marijuana crops in the hemp fields,,,since marijuana is illegal to keep hemp off the open market,if the federal government van keep the black market in place they will continue trying to keep hemp off the open market.

 

I think I-502 was written too fail and between the greed of the broke state government and the profits most growers in the state are accustomed to making,,it will make the state so little taxes the feds will be laughing up their sleeves.

CO has a much better chance at taking out the black market because they have personal grows allowed,,if the state retail prices are too high in CO at least you can grow your own,

Price

Price of commodities [and basically everything else ]  is usually determined by what is referred to as " supply and demand " . Who could`ve guessed ? A Cannabis user and grower in California could care less about Cannabis in Washington . Why would someone that grows some auto-flower plants indoors , that lives in Seattle , want to go and pay $200+/oz. at a local State store for inferior quality product ? The only way to keep the price of Cannabis up is to maintain the prohibition on home grows for personal use . The stores would only have tourists and those awaiting first harvest to sell to . Plus , the Mexican commercial brick-weed will still be available to undercut the store bought product . The racket continues......

DdC's picture

Ending D.E.A.th & Pillage, Incrementally?

Mark Kleiman * Jonathan Caulkins * Botec

Raich v Gonzales granted the Federal government Commerce rights over selling or giving away more than reasonable amounts. States have authority over individuals growing reasonable amounts. Reasonable amounts have been established by the Feds IND program as 300 joints every 25 days or 100 plants per year. The 10th amendment was over ridden due to the Commerce clause. Its the IRS busting buyers clubs, not DEA. CA compassionate use act is the only state law permitting reasonable amounts for anyone for any reason. MMJ states, including CO and WA have limited themselves to a catch 22 impossible situation quantifying amounts that are impossible to grow individually. Forcing sales that are illegal under Fed jurisdiction. No one can grow an ounce or less. Over 30 countries are growing Hemp as the US maintains its ugly prohibition of it.  Enough! Remove cannabis as a schedule#1 narcotic. Including Hemp that should have never been put there in the first place. Stop incrementalizing. Cannabis is safe, end of story. Follow CA or Bust'

Ending D.E.A.th & Pillage Incrementally

Marijuana Legalization Bill Introduced in Nevada
Maryland Senate Okays Marijuana Decriminalization
Oregon: Bill To Legalize, Tax MJ Scheduled For Hearing
Florida: Dem Fundraiser Determined To Put MMJ on Ballot

Illinois: House Panel Says OK To Medical Marijuana
Concord, N.H:Vt., Maine Offer Medical Marijuana Lessons for NH
Medical Marijuana Won't Help Ohioans, Group Says
Massachusetts: State Attorney General’s Office Strikes Down Ban

Marijuana: the law vs. 12 million people
Life magazine Oct 31, 1969. 25-35

"Do you realize the responsibility I carry?
I'm the only person standing between Richard Nixon
and the White House."
~ John F. Kennedy

Nixon lied to schedule Ganja #1

Nixon's 40 Year War On Drugs... Drugs Won!

Nixon Lie Keeps on Killing

Once-Secret Nixon Tapes Show Why the U.S. Outlawed Pot



AMA Calls For Ending Nixon's Lie?

Richard Milhouse Nixon to Raymond P. Shafer"

Nixon Commission Report

1972 US Marihuana: A Signal of Misunderstanding
US National Commission on Marihuana and Drug Abuse

Richard Nixon On Pot

Pissing on Drug Warrior Graves

While Nixon Campaigned, FBI Watched John Lennon cache

Price Drop? Why not?

I don't see any reason anyone should object to a substantial Cannabis price drop other than it will suddenly speedily kill the entrenched well-lobbied Nicotine $igarette marketing bizness. Prohibition is the only reason for $200/oz prices (compared to $igarettes mostly under $20/2-packs = 28 oz)-- the 10-1 PRICE DIFFERENTIAL keeping Nicotine drug more attractive financially to "SMOKING" youngsters whom the tobacckgo industry want hooked as quickly as possible in largest numbers. Think of this next time you read of some $1-mil. growhouse "bust" calculated to help impose the huge Law Enforcement Avoidance (LEA) "tax" alias high cannabis price to discourage users from supporting the industry.

Prices will plummet in Washington State eventually

It may take another citizens' initiative, but it will happen one way or another, after cannabis has proved it's worth, to any but the most prejudiced, in the relatively level playing field competition currently going on in Washington between alcohol and weed. I am anxiously waiting to see if anyone gets killed because of cannabis impairment this year in WA or CO. I expect the contrast with alcohol to be glaring and indisputable, and I'll want that noted by appropriate state officials, including the two governors. 

My opinion of Kleiman changed for the better recently because of a comment he made relating to alcohol vs. cannabis. He said (pretty sure I have this right) that if legal marijuana causes even a fairly small decline in alcohol use, the resulting harm reduction would offset the problems he expects to be caused by a likely increase in marijuana use.

Mexieweed is working hard to raise awareness that the same can be said about substituting cannabis use for tobacco use.

Stronger strains means a

Stronger strains means a person will smoke less to get the same high, much like a person will drink less hard liquor to get the same drunk as beer. This only holds true for experienced smokers though, and I can see danger to inexperienced smokers in a market where there are only strong strains. The danger is not only in psychotic episodes, if a newbie only gets wasted every time they smoke they may not be able to understand what it is to get only a little high. A 1 beer equivalent opposed to a 6 pack.

My only point is we should

My only point is we should have reasonable expectations.

And there's no conspiracy theory at all. It's simple a-to-b reasoning: the ghetto needs to stay the ghetto and the cops needs license to bust kneecaps. If that changes, we might have a democratic movement on our hands or something equally horrifying. The 60s taught the upper classes just what happens if you let the rabble get too uppity.

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